The Zeppelin Raid on Jarrow 1915
#31
Hi Philip. Bill Hartmann is a specialist on this subject. If you contact him he's always happy to help. This is one of his fortes.
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#32
Where were the bombs dropped? The Official Secrets Act, “D Notices” etc prevented the Press from giving precise reports which might give us a clue. Bill Hartmann kindly posted partial images of 17-18 Jun 1915 Illustrated Chronicle articles in the JarrowLife.co.uk thread “Lane family history”. The 17 Jun 1915 article stated: “For military reasons the places visited by the aircraft are not announced in the official report by the Admiralty…” Then the report on the Inquest on the following day said: “The Coroner said they could not take the matter any further. They knew aircraft had been over, and they only had to deal with the effects.” This meant the civil process could not investigate matters of military significance. However a little more information came to light with complete high resolution scans of the same articles from the Newcastle Library… your libraries are staffed by really great people! The 18 Jun issue now went on to say: “A night manager said about 11.15 p.m. he heard a loud report and saw a flash. This was followed by others in rapid succession. A bomb dropped on the roof. Witness was about 25 or 30 feet from it, and he was struck by splinters on the back and head, the latter being cut. As near as he could estimate three or four shells fell on the roof, two more being more powerful than the others.” The roof of which building? At least we know that the deaths probably occurred when one shed was hit.
Which shed? Contemporary accounts would help, but the secrecy provisions prevented this. By the time that these matters were not secret, so many much more terrible events had occurred in the region that the story would not seem relevant. Perhaps there are such accounts, but I have not found them recorded.
Death certificates would be an expensive way to find the occupations of the victims and thus “which shed”. However, the recently released 1911 Census gave us the break-through…. now described in my previous post… the answer is probably the fitters' shed.
Philip Strong
(Australia)
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#33
The bombs which killed the men fell on the Erecting Shop/Shed & the alleyway between the Screwing Shop & Tool Stores, which was only 50 yards away from Clayton St.

There is a map of the L10s (and the L9s raid in April 1915) on my website. Click on the 'link' word' SOUTH on the main page to access it . You will see exactly where the bombs dropped, and how many. URL: http://www.deathshipoverjarrow.com
According to my notes gathered from interviews with people who were working at Palmers that night. Joseph Lane and J. B Thorneycroft were killed together. Joseph had refused to work nights but for some unknown reason had done so on that fateful night.

The reasons for names appearing on war memorials or having been missed off or appearing on more than one memorial, are both complex & varied, and should not be 'guessed at'. I have seen a few 'rants' on here about names omitted from war memorials in the borough, however this is due to lack of knowledge and lack of applied research. I will discuss this in a bit more detail later.
Names on the plaque? Why were those particular men chosen? Who knows. I have already stated that it is doubtful that Lawrence Frazer Sanderson worked at Palmers. I was told (by two contemporary sources)that he had gone with his mate William Grieves Turner to deliver Turner's Dad's bait. They were killed together in the scewing shop (see above)

Thomas Henry Smith was a sea going Mercheant Marine,engineer awaiting his ship to be re-fitted, but worked in the yard in the meantime. He is on the plaque and on the Monkton War Memoral.

See also in the HISTORY section of this site ...A PHOTO QUIZ....and......THE ANSWER.... for more, but accurate information on the raid.

The inquests you refer to are for the individuals who were killed. The inquest on the Zeppelin Raid itself was held in August 1916.
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#34
I sympathise with Bill Hartmann's feelings about ill-informed posts. My preferred post is one which states information which can be verified from carefully cited references... which changes mere assertion to verifiable data. Then, importantly, the data is discussed, making firm conclusions and/or suggestions (hypotheses), which might stimulate the reader to make further contributions. Guesses/ suggestions should be framed so that they do not appear as statements of fact.

It would be great if Bill would give details of his references for:
(a) exact location of where the bombs fell in Palmers Works: "Erecting Shop/Shed & the alleyway between the Screwing Shop & Tool Stores"
(b) oral history: "Joseph Lane and J. B Thorneycroft were killed together. Joseph had refused to work nights but for some unknown reason had done so on that fateful night." Most important to me since Joseph was my great uncle! Transcript would be great.
© "inquest on the Zeppelin Raid itself was held in August 1916".... newspaper name and date?

It is interesting that Bill reports this oral history: "Lawrence Sanderson...had gone with his mate William Grieves Turner to deliver Turner's Dad's bait. They were killed together in the screwing shop". It must have been "Dad's Army" security in those days? Lawrence went to deliver the bait in the middle of the night in wartime when 3 Royal Navy ships were in the final stages of being built in the shipyard: HMS Marshal Ney (launched 17 Jun 1915, 2 days after the bombing), HMS Marshal Soult (launched 24 Aug 1915), HMS General Wolfe (launched 9 Sept 1915. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmers_Shipbuilding_and_Iron_Company

I hope Bill can give the details... in common with my Irish STRONG family from Belfast... I need to be sure, to be sure!

Philip Strong
(Australia)
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#35
NO No. Don't use Wikipedia. It is full of mis-information and hearsay. Sad
Have you read my post. PHOTO QUIZ & THE ANSWER. The most important ship in the yard was the ''Resolution'' The King had visited only a week before to see it. The Marshall Ney (BIG GUN MONITOR) was damaged by the bombing. I am in touch with the commander's grand son. His Great Grandad retired as a Rear Admiral. He wrote his memoirs in the 1930s and I have been given permission to use an extract where he describes the night Palmers was bombed.
Not sure which newspaper printed details of the enquiry. I will have to look it up.
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#36
It would be unwise to reject all Wikipedia articles as Bill says: "NO No. Don't use Wikipedia. It is full of mis-information and hearsay." I would rather say: Wikipedia is quite a mixed bag and should be used with caution.

It is important to be given the opportunity to evaluate sources... this is why sources should be identified in a serious historical discussion. This is why I look forward to Bill revealing his sources.

Philip Strong
(Australia)
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#37
No need to evaluate Wikipedia, it is full of junk! :amen:
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#38
Let's not erect a distraction regarding tolerance of sound articles within the variable standard in Wikipedia articles. Let's focus politely on the central issue... clear identification of the sources of Bill's assertions which can then be evaluated independently. The assertions were:

(a) exact location of where the bombs fell in Palmers Works: "Erecting Shop/Shed & the alleyway between the Screwing Shop & Tool Stores"
(b) oral history: "Joseph Lane and J. B Thorneycroft were killed together. Joseph had refused to work nights but for some unknown reason had done so on that fateful night." Most important to me since Joseph was my great uncle! Transcript would be great.
© "inquest on the Zeppelin Raid itself was held in August 1916".... newspaper name and date?

This is leaving aside the oral history / assertion that Lawrence Frazer Sanderson who may not have worked at Palmers, went "with his mate William Grieves Turner to deliver Turner's Dad's bait" (lunch box). They "were killed together in the screwing shop". This assertion meant that they gained entry to the shipyards in wartime, past the front gate in the middle of the night, whilst they were unemployed there and/or not on duty at that time... and entered a restricted area to deliver a lunch box! Note that "bait" was usually delivered to the front gate. Perhaps this source could be evaluated also?

Philip Strong
(from the Colonies)
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#39
Philip, I have already referred you to a War Department map I have, which pinpoints the spot where the bombs fell in the the raid.

However, I have just visited your website and due to something I found on there, :mad: I am now unwilling to discuss/help you further regarding this matter on this message board or in any other way. Sorry Philip.
If you require an explanation PM me
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#40
Bill, Thank you for the referral to your website where you placed a copy of the War Dept map. However, its low resolution "mud map" nature doesn't give us precise locations. Importantly, it does not give us the locations of where the high explosive ordnance was dropped which caused the fatalities. The (fewer?) HE bombs required cradles to unload, whilst the incendiaries could be more easily and frequently dropped by hand over the side of the Zeppelin. As a former RAF officer you would have picked up on this.

Great pity that Bill is unwilling to discuss these matters further for an unspecified reason... following his visit to my website?:confused: Just when we thought we were about to receive clear identification of the sources of his previous assertions which could then be evaluated independently.

Philip Strong
(from friendly Australia)
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